General Questions

I don't have the history to understand a few issues discussed within the enthusiast community and was hoping someone could help:

(1) why do people challenge Cedar Point's classification of Pipe Scream as a rollercoaster but nobody seems to challenge the same classification for Wicked Twister?

(2) what happened between Intamin and Cedar Point where it is now assumed the two parties will not work with one another?

thanks in advanced

1. Because WT resembles a coaster, where PS really doesn't.

2. Bad reliability of installed attractions, more downtime, the head of management at the company is a jerk and difficult to work with.

1) Yes it does, lol. See, it has tracks and the car moves on them. LOL Not trying to argue about it.

2) Mavericks construction issues, heartline roll having to be removed.

in regards to the Intamin / Cedar Point relationship are there specific incidents that happened (or even the proverbial "straw the broke the camel's back") or is it as simple as the three stated generalizations?

I don't want to rehash what seems to be a worn and pointless debate but I agree with JTaylor; functionally I see no difference between Wicked Twister and Pipe Scream

KI doesn't classify Surf Dog as a roller coaster. CP just does so they can add it to their coaster count.

Urumqi said:

in regards to the Intamin / Cedar Point relationship are there specific incidents that happened (or even the proverbial "straw the broke the camel's back") or is it as simple as the three stated generalizations?

WT needed daily weld repairs during the first season, then modifications after its debut season.

TTD had enormous downtime its first 2 seasons. Also, a tire (a thematic element) detached from one of the trains.

Maverick's heartline roll had to be replaced, causing a delayed debut.

Shoot the Rapids was just a complete disaster of a ride. The boats barely stayed afloat, and meandered painfully slowly through the course. And then a boat rolled backwards down the lift, nearly killing its passengers.

Though I think Kinzel deserves as much blame for StR as does Intamin. By that point it was clear Intamin was incompetent, on top of their US rep being a jerk. Fool me once...

^ it may not have been that they went back to Intamin for STR after their previous issues. They may have been under a contract or some sort of agreement that specified they had to install an x number of attractions over an x number of years.

Pipe Scream is a powered shuttle coaster as far as I'm concerned. Agreed​ that there is not much difference​ between it and Wicked Twister except for the propulsion mechanism. The tracks even resemble RMC track. The arguments that it is not a coaster are weaker then the ones arguing that it is a coaster. In summary, who cares? It is a fun ride.

Urumqi said:
I don't want to rehash what seems to be a worn and pointless debate but I agree with JTaylor; functionally I see no difference between Wicked Twister and Pipe Scream

Functionally, WT has an unpowered "coasting" train, while PS is a powered vehicle.

Thabto said:

They may have been under a contract or some sort of agreement that specified they had to install an x number of attractions over an x number of years.

Which would mean Kinzel shoulders even more of the blame.

Dragster still has things fly off of it from time to time. Recently as last year I think and goes unspoken because thankfully it didn't wack someone on the midway. StR was by all accounts a total failure although I do remember enjoying it the few times I got on it.

Overall though MF, WT, TTD and Mav are world class rides and taking the good with the bad I think the park is a better place because these monsters were built. The smaller B&M era we've had has worked out quite well, compensating for the lower capacity/reliability Intamin decade.

And now for 2018 a ride that very well could top all of 'em.

CP Maverick said:

Functionally, WT has an unpowered "coasting" train, while PS is a powered vehicle.

I defer to ACE's standard. If it's powered, it's not a coaster.

To each their own, though. That's where I draw my line and I have no complaints with where others draw their lines.

Even that can get a little squirrelly.

The Whizzer at Six Flags Great America (among others) has electric motors in the cars to get them up the lift hill. Nobody disputes whether that is a coaster. The trick? The cars are only powered on the spiral lift hill. Once off the lift, gravity takes over.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

STR may have been planned to be built before Maverick. Thought I remembered reading an article about Kinzel mentioning a "new water ride in Frontier Town" during a 2005 interview. He was commenting on the decision to build Maxair, rather than a new water ride for that season.

Seems to make sense, since White Water Landing was removed at the end of 2005 to make way for Maverick.

CP Maverick said:

Functionally, WT has an unpowered "coasting" train, while PS is a powered vehicle.

That is true to only a certain extent. The WT train is actually half of an electric motor, so it is a powered vehicle to a certain extent. When comparing to a traditional electric motor, the train could be thought of as the stator and the powered coils on the track as the rotor. Though in a normal motor the rotor moves and the stator is stationary, opposite of WT.

PS is a powered vehicle but it is not constantly powered, it does do its share of coasting.

Urumqi said:

(1) why do people challenge Cedar Point's classification of Pipe Scream as a rollercoaster but nobody seems to challenge the same classification for Wicked Twister?

This debate will never truly be settled as each person can have a different definition of what makes a coaster a coaster. BUT Zamperla does market these attractions on their website as a coaster. So why not? marketing is marketing...

I always felt 1st Gen Intamin freefalls, such as Demon Drop, could be considered roller coasters too. They used a chain lift, relied on gravity and followed a complete circuit. Definitely fit the bill more then shuttle coasters do in a traditional sense, yet no one ever argued about their classification, mainly due to the fact they were marketed as a freefall ride and not a coaster.

If you want to consider it a coaster and track it as a credit if you do that sort of thing, go for it!

RideMan said:

The Whizzer at Six Flags Great America (among others) has electric motors in the cars to get them up the lift hill. Nobody disputes whether that is a coaster. The trick? The cars are only powered on the spiral lift hill. Once off the lift, gravity takes over.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

I'm not concerned with how trains get up a lift hill. As long as gravity does its job after that point, I'm good.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to get back to thinking about important things, like whether Spock changing Kirk's memories in Requim For Methuselah was a gift or an assault :-)

I do cringe a little when I see marketing videos of cedar point coasters (such as the one at valravn announcement) and they show pipe scream. I am on team no way jose for it being a coaster, but either way I have no interst in riding it. It is what it is, and it looks good with that new midway so I dont care otherwise.

It is interesting how basically the three most popular coasters in the park are intamin, yet intamin has been shunned.

Ive always wondered if they could gut ttd and rebuild the mechanics using newer more reliable technology. Is that even a mechanical possibility?

Pipe Scream is a really fun ride, you are missing out by not riding it. In any case, I don't see why people get so passionate about what is or is not a coaster. As far as Pipe Scream, the manufacturer calls it a coaster and CP calls it a coaster so it must be a coaster. It's good enough for me. And really, coasters and all other rides are all amusement rides that give different experiences. Pipe Scream is a fun ride no matter how it is classified and that is really all that is important.