Parking lot Solar Panels/Shade Structure

Lordstown Motors was also nothing but a false promise to the northeast Ohio region anyway. Now there is FoxConn doing the exact same thing. But with the new Ultium Cells battery plant that’s been built, we will see what happens…Ever since GM left the area, that side of Lordstown has been nothing but a sad ghost town. I drive through that area every day for work and it is just sad.

All I know is that I can only afford to own and operate one car, and that car has to meet my requirements for both my weekday driving, for which even a Nissan Leaf would probably work, and for the road trips I take about 40x a year, mostly on the weekends, and often into areas where EV charging infrastructure is still spotty. Right now I drive a gigantic highway cruiser which is so well optimized for highway driving that while a tank of gas lasts me about 300 miles in town, I can cruise almost 500 miles on the highway without refueling.

Given that I can only have one vehicle, and that the current state of EVs really would only work for me five days of the week, and that for the reasons Jeff points out, the EV charging infrastructure is going to take a while to get better...if it ever really does...the vehicle that would make the most sense for me would be a REEV, preferably one engineered to prioritize all-electric operation. The weight and space penalty of carrying around the ICE charging infrastructure would really be a small price to pay for being able to make regular long-distance short-duration trips without having to make compromises.

So where are they? I know that's a bridge product between ICE and EV but why don't we see more of them? And no, I don't mean hybrids like the original Prius where every electron the thing uses has to come out of the gas tank. I'm talking about all-electric vehicles with an onboard charging engine that probably isn't even connected to the drive train.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

^While I don't know you RideMan, I am picturing you in this fantastic machine cruising to your next meeting 500 miles away. (just joking around sir)

That's not far from what he's driving. :)

Consumers don't want a range-extender EV. BMW couldn't sell it in volume, and GM couldn't either.

If most of your drives are to Kings Island or Cedar Point, Dave, many of the choices available today can round-trip that without charging at all. And if the CP drive is a little close, there is of course a supercharger in Sandusky (at Meijer), and also one in Ashland (a little out of the way) that works with all cars.

And you have to ask yourself what convenience costs, not to mention energy, and whether or not that's worth it to you. Assuming you get 25mpg, you're spending 12 cents per mile assuming a $3/gallon price. At 10 cents per kWh in Ohio (more at public charging), your cost for most EV's, doing at least 4 miles per kWh, is 2.5 cents.

So extrapolate that by a typical 12,000 miles/year. Gas is $1,440, while the electricity is $300. Add in four oil changes a year ($120), and whatever other maintenance is required. If you have the car for five years, that's more than $6k in savings. Plus you leave with a "full tank" every morning.

As I think we've talked through in this thread, people lay into one thing that they think is negative and disregard all of the upside. Then it turns out the negative isn't even that big of a deal.

Jeff:

A few of you mentioned BYD... an op-ed in the Times today says Detroit is screwed already if they can't figure out how to catch up and compete before they get here. I've been saying this for years, and take no pleasure in seeing it come true.

Wait and see never works out in a global economy.

This is not a "Detroit" problem. It is, if we're to call it someone's problem, a "United States" problem.

Detroit, both the region and the Big Three (er, maybe 2 of the 3, anyway), have been building EVs and EV architecture for many years now. Lucid, Rivian, Faraday Future (RIP), Canoo (RIP), and even Tesla vehicles are built, to varying degrees, by "Detroit", via tier 1 suppliers proving battery skateboards, sharing technology platforms, etc. There's no "waiting and seeing" going on here.

The problem presented by China's EV industry is not one that can be solved easily by the industry's/region's ability or will. It is that China's government has been dumping many, many billions of dollars of subsidies into the EV industry there. Not a whole lot "Detroit" can do to compete when a sizeable part of the so-called "global economy" is divorced from the free market via enormous government subsidies.

Also, not directed at you, but that NYT oped is just trash.

But producing electric vehicles profitably is an organizational skill, and like any skill, it takes time, effort and money to develop. Even if Ford and GM now bust out innovative new designs, they will lag their competition in executing them well.

This is hilarious. EVs, compared to ICE vehicles, are relatively easy to produce, and Detroit has been building vehicles at enormous scale for quite a while now.

Perhaps the Big Three deserve destruction; after all, they hooked us on S.U.V.s in the first place...

My goodness. Yes, it was definitely the Big Three that forced people to buy SUVs and trucks.

Dave,

Hyundai is looking into offering a car that will charge the battery from an ICE.

You would be a good candidate for something like a Prius Prime where you use the battery for in town driving and gas for longer drives. The newer models get 45 miles on a charge. I was averaging over 200 mpg on my 2020 Prius Prime. The Prius Prime can also charge the battery from the ICE but I rarely used that feature.

Jim

"Detroit" is shorthand for "American auto industry."

Detroit:

Jeff:

"Detroit" is shorthand for "American auto industry."

I get that. But it seemed your, and certainly the NYT oped's, implication was that the industry caused the problem of China subsidizing their EV industry.

The industry, the government, consumers... it's all a system. You're too far in the weeds. The op-ed nor my opinion are laying blame on anything, only pointing out that the system on this continent decided it wasn't important enough to invest in. The reason China has an advantage doesn't matter outside of our inability to respond. American exceptionalism is toxic like that. We have no self-awareness.

jimmyburke, that really isn't far off from what I drive. Although mine is a bit newer...I have a 2005 Crown Victoria, which is the same platform as the Town Car. There's something to be said for being able to drive 300 miles and not be exhausted when you get there.

For me, Cedar Point and Kings Island are dead easy. Even easier if either park adds destination charging courtesy of the solar array in the parking lot. It's when you go just a little further out that it gets a little dicey...Indiana Beach, Holiday World, Kennywood, Waldameer, Michigan's Adventure and Dollywood all come to mind as not-too-far-off places where charging requirements could start to require some compromises.

And the math totally adds up for me. TCO for electric is almost a no-brainer. Heck, maybe by the time I can think about replacing my car they'll come out with a CrownE-Victoria for me...

But the vehicle, infrastructure, and feature set have to be able to serve my needs 100% of the time. Right now I think it's at or above 90%, but not quite there yet. And truthfully, the way things are moving, it might be 100% by the time I need a new car, assuming I can avoid catastrophe with this one.

--Dave Althoff, Jr.

FB memory today... driving back from Cape Coral to Orange County at an old slow-ass charger. Put on 86 miles of range in 10 minutes, before it was enough to move on. That's how you roll when you "fuel" overnight. The faster ones can do a hundred miles in 5 minutes. Fortunately these old ones are becoming pretty rare. This one was in Arcadia, FL, and has since been upgraded to 250kW, and even supports non-Teslas.

I’ll just say that I took Tesla’s unattended demo drive of a Model Y for about a hour this week. Great fun! Recommend trying it out just for fun. Look up demo drive on the Tesla website. It will tell you where the unattended demo drive is available. It’s all done on a smartphone. No, I have no association with Tesla other than that I want a Cybertruck so bad I can taste it!!

Well Jeff you'd be proud I ordered my first Tesla today. Wow that was the best car buying experience I've ever had! Like ordering something on Amazon. Excited to get it delivered this week.

Honestly, that alone is almost worth any deficiencies in the product. Buying a car the "normal" way is exhausting and terrible and always a time suck, and I say that as someone who enjoys ****ing with negotiators and "let me ask my manager" types. In FL, you don't ever have to actually sign anything, it's all in-app. We showed up, did a quick walk-around, put it on the supercharger for a few minutes, and drove away.

Yeah, the "normal" way really sucks. Always an unpleasant experience. And I'm in MI and basically everything has been done on the app so far and it looks like it will be that way to the finish line. I'm actually waiting on them to ask for the down payment right now. Because MI is controlled by the big 3 and Tesla doesn't use dealers, the "good ole boy" network won't allow them to keep cars on lots here. So everything has to be transacted before they can bring the car in the state.

Ironically enough I literally just got a call from their rep as I was typing this. I'll be picking it up at their Ann Arbor, MI service center this Friday. I will have to sign some papers in person but payment and everything else will be handled on the app. And it's still definitely the easiest car buying experience I've ever had. Getting excited to get this thing!

So I am in the process of buying a new Bronco and I have done every step via text message. It's wild. Aside from my bank which was done via email, no calls, I have only communicated everything for this purchase with the salesman over text messaging. He did initially call me after I submitted interest on their website but I never answered the call and before I could check the voicemail, he had text me about it. I was in a meeting at the time so I answered his questions and before I knew it, I was in the middle of the whole thing without ever having had a phone call. I pick the car up tomorrow provided I still like everything I have seen in pictures.

That's how my experience buying a Chevy Malibu was in 2022 and I would've raved about too, until I went to the dealership to actually get the car. It all fell apart from there. Report back after you do that. I almost walked out because the guy wouldn't give up on selling me warranty, gap coverage, tire protection, etc. Not to mention they tried to screw me on the interest rate I qualified to get. Thankfully I'm educated and understand buy and sell rates for financing. I'll never go there again and I actually like the car and the sales rep I transacted with before I arrived. It was their "business manager" that lost me as a repeat customer.

Even though I liked the sales rep and process before going, it still wasn't nearly as easy as buying the Tesla. It literally took 20 minutes on the app from start to finish without talking to anyone. And that includes picking the car, placing the order, registration, financing, and submitting insurance. We'll see how pickup goes this Friday though. I hope your experience tomorrow is better than mine was in 2022!

Always crazy to me they can do that in terms of the warranties, tire protections, etc. You agree upon a price and that flows (if you are financing or leasing) to a monthly payment. Business/finance manager/closer brings in paperwork that has 5 or 6 different monthly payments (all higher than the one you agreed to) and its a struggle to find the one you agreed to (if its even there at al). You have to say you want the price you agreed to previously. Presumably a lot of people don't even know that is an option.

I took my kids in through that process one time each when they were teens. Talked about what to expect before we got there and then again after in terms of what happened. All other times I just shut it all down. But I always put it on the sales person to make sure the process is quick. Only painful buying experience I have had in 30+ years of buying cars was the first car I bought after college and that was mainly because I was young and dumb. But in the last 25 years, I have only dealt with 2 car dealerships. Most of it with same sales persons (though its been 6 years since I was at one of those dealerships and 11 years for the other).

Process can be a lot easier now with a lot less back and forth. Games are worth it to me and there are dealers (at least there were) who don't play the games. Signed up for 0.9% manufacturer financing for my son's car and dealership got me 0.7% from a bank (I didn't really care and they may have gotten less than that I don't know but couldn't have been much less). With as easy as it is to get financing now, I think it makes sense to arrange for your own. If deal gets something better, great but you have other competitive options (dealers can juice the rates they obtain so you end up paying more). Multiple profit centers for dealerships and they don't necessarily care which bucket their profits fall into.

Yeah I've had better experiences with other dealers as well as it was much more straightforward without so much hard sell. I felt like I was at Sam's corner used car lot and not what was supposed to be reputable new car dealer in the area. And that was actually the first time in a long time that I didn't get zero percent financing altogether but I know rates had gone up and wasn't expecting zero that time. What got me is all the shenanigans that went down exactly as you described. It's like, "Dude, I don't care what my payment is, I care what I'm paying." I can only imagine how many fools walk out of there paying way more than they should.

What really got me is I asked before I went in for a copy of the loan paperwork so I could review it before I got in there. I was told no because there were things about the financing they needed to go over in person. I took it at face value because they really didn't get that much information from me. And then I get there and it was all about selling me on nonsense and nothing to do with financing. I made it about financing when I saw the rate they were trying pass off on me, hidden behind a "low" payment and much longer term then I wanted. I knew I qualified for better because I know my credit score and I was putting down 20% on the car. They gave it to me, but had I not said anything I would've been screwed. I can honestly say it's the first time in my adult life I wasn't offered the best rate they have up front from a new car dealer. I've bought several new cars over the years never had to fight for an interest rate before.

You are right though, not all dealers play those games. I've got one in the area I'd use again.