Dinosaurs! >>>Good idea or really bad idea???

josh88 said:
Both parks was in reference to splitting of Frontier, DA isn't a seperate park and I think it's pretty tough to say it doesn't add value when they will be making a profit on land that was previously empty.

Go ahead continue ignoring all the examples of other stuff you have to pay for in the park, enjoy that little world of yours you live in because it has provided quite a bit of entertainment.

Yes, I got that. DA will be a park within a park. Just like splitting Frontier would create a park within a park. No, it doesn't add value to the park. It is a temporary attraction compariable to pitching a tent in your front yard and renting it out. Thank you for further making my point. If the park had actually bought the rights to DA and made it a permanent attraction for years to come that would be an actual investment in the park, not something it pays a contractor for.

YouCEdarMyPoint said:
I understand the basics of economic business strategies can be difficult to grasp for those who still live in their parents basements

That's a pretty condescending statement from someone who has already exhibited poor knowledge of Cedar Point history and the amusement park business - and clearly someone who has no idea how many posters here have years and decades of experience in this industry.

My mom's house doesn't have a basement, but I can assure you it's been a long, long time since I've lived on any other floor there.

Kevinj said:

/quote]

You do realize that all attractions at Cedar Point used to be POP, right?

Silly Kevin, we have went over all that already and everyone already conceded they were wrong about that.

Walt said:

That's a pretty condescending statement from someone who has already exhibited poor knowledge of Cedar Point history and the amusement park business - and clearly someone who has no idea how many posters here have years and decades of experience in this industry.

My mom's house doesn't have a basement, but I can assure you it's been a long, long time since I've lived on any other floor there.

I understand a lot of posters on this site think they know a lot more about the history of the park and the industry than they really do. I do happen to know a thing or two about a bad business model and DA is it. You don't have to like it; but, the upcharge is nothing more than a short term fix or a quik money grab that alienates the customer base the company claims it is trying to build. You cannot claim Cedar Fair has anything but a horrible track record for business decisions over the last decade. DA is just another example of really bad decisions that park has made. DA does nothing to make the park more family friendly, improve infrustructure, or add value to park.

It doesn't really matter what floor you are living in if you don't even look out the window to see if it's raining.

If DA is a bad business model, why has it become a multi-park installation?

Silly Kevin, we have went over all that already and everyone already conceded they were wrong about that.

Per my grandparents, you had to buy tickets for the attraction until the 1960's. And their neighbors.

I trust them over you.

I could indeed be incorrect (or they could be), but I am fairly confident that there was indeed day when one had to buy tickets for attractions.

^That is correct. Each attraction and food stand was operated independently and you had to buy a ticket for each ride.

Eh, I think I'm done playing now.

Can't wait to show my daughter the dinosaurs in a few days.

:)

Kevinj said:

Silly Kevin, we have went over all that already and everyone already conceded they were wrong about that.

Per my grandparents, you had to buy tickets for the attraction until the 1960's. And their neighbors.

I trust them over you.

Your grandparents are correct. Most early parks charged per attraction but no general admission charge. They all changed to a general admission flat rate because of security concerns over loitering non-paying crowds; plus, the parks found they could make more money by charging people to enter the park even if they don't ride or only ride a few rides. That is another reason why upcharging for separate attractions is not the best business model. DA will have a fraction of the attendence the compared to the whole park admissions. A slight increase in the general admission price would raise far more revenue for the park than the DA upcharge alone.

Trust your grandparents but also know when to look at the whole picture.

YouCEdarMyPoint said:

I understand a lot of posters on this site think they know a lot more about the history of the park and the industry than they really do. I do happen to know a thing or two about a bad business model and DA is it.

Your condescending comments are extremely insulting to many of the members here who have a vast knowledge of Cedar Point history and a firm grasp of the amusement park industry. You actually sound a lot like one of the idiot posters on Yahoo Finance who's agenda seemed to be constantly bash everything Cedar Fair did.

As 99er said, "The stupidity has reach critical mass." I'm also out.

soooooo ill just say that I'm excited for DA. although i would much rather see a new roller coaster come to the park I know if i was in elementary school, i would be so pumped for DA. i just have 2 concerns.
1. i hope it dose well at cedar point (i think it did fairly well over at KI)
2. they have have it in a great location, right by where a lot of kids will be all day, but won't that huge T-rex out at by the entrance to DA scare some kids???
either way i think its a good addition and well just have to wait for the 500 foot wooden roller coaster that goes under water.

Captain A.T.B said:
If DA is a bad business model, why has it become a multi-park installation?

Simple question, not enough room on this forum for a complete answer; but, I will give as small as version as I can without people trying to take quotes out of context.

Main reason is, as I have already stated, it is a quik money grab. 1) Parks can't resist the lure of easy money with little or no investment. It works for what it is intended to do. Raise quik capital. Parks make more money by charging flat general admission than selling per ride. The only thing better than the flat general admission rate is upcharging on a general admission. 2) It is a gamble that usually pays off. Parks gamble every time they raise their prices on anything. The tricky part is not raising the prices too much past the point of diminishing returns. Most upcharges target smaller groups of consumers that are willing to pay extra for an added perk or special interest (Fast Lane is the classic upcharge). You charge too much for something and people stop buying it; or, you raise the price too much and you start losing customers and profit. The DA upcharge targets the very group it says it is trying to attract. If DA sucks then families will be a lot less likely to return to the park for return business which is obviously crucial to the long term health of the park. 3) Parks have captive audiences. They can upcharge for the same reason they can charge triple for a $5 footlong at Subway or serve inedible pizza or hamburgers. It's simply too difficult to get food elsewhere or listen to kids cry the whole ride home that they didn't get to see the dinosaurs.

None of these reasons mean that upcharging at DA is a good business model. It is actually detrimental to the long term health of a park unless you are Disney.

I'm sorry I stopped at the use of the "word" quik.

YouCEdarMyPoint said:

2) It is a gamble that usually pays off.

If DA sucks then families will be a lot less likely to return to the park

There are very few people that a waste of $5 will completely turn away from the park. The only people who get that bent out shape to never come back are nutjobs. If it sucks sure they probably won't go back to DA but you don't have to partake in any of the things that cost extra. That's where they make a ton of profit, people pay to get in the park and ride the rides. Just because your wife "accidentally" pays too much for some food you're never coming to the park again?

"A lot less likely" is a huge overstatement, most families just won't pay the $5 on the next trip. Plain and simple. They'll continue coming in droves, continue packing food in coolers in their car, and continue riding rides. Not swear off a trip because the sky is falling down or because they'll feel dirty being in the same park that has dirty five dollar dinosaurs.

I'm out, we'll be laughing over here ---->

Pete said:

Your condescending comments are extremely insulting to many of the members here who have a vast knowledge of Cedar Point history and a firm grasp of the amusement park industry. You actually sound a lot like one of the idiot posters on Yahoo Finance who's agenda seemed to be constantly bash everything Cedar Fair did.

As 99er said, "The stupidity has reach critical mass." I'm also out.

It is what it is. If anyone is insulted by my comments that is their problem and is probably because my comments are a little more true than they want to admit. My comments weren't directed at any one person and I didn't resort to calling names or saying people were stupid because I disagreed with them. I'm not offended if people want to call me a troll or say my opinions are stupid. Thats what forums are all about, free dom to express ones opinions. I never said people don't have vast knowledge or the amusement industry. To anyone who was offended by my opinion then I will say; yes, you don't know nearly as much as you think you do and you need a serious ego check.

I have no idea what a finance guy on Yahoo said. I will say I love Cedar Point. Management has done great things to make the park what it is today. That doesn't mean it hasn't made catastrophic decisions that nearly brought the company to the brink of bankruptcy. Kinzel had a great run; but, got too big for his britches and has admitted as much. He has admitted he made mistakes. So... unless all you offended people out there know more than Kinzel then you can kiss my A## or admit I'm right.

YouCEdarMyPoint said:
I understand the basics of economic business strategies can be difficult to grasp for those who still live in their parents basements... are very strong indications of a company in severe financial distress.

Balance sheet, dude. It's a public company. Read it. And maybe get out of your own basement.

And you probably should stop tossing around insults at people when you can't even use the quoting feature correctly.

Let me drop some reality on you. These parks are never going to see significant attendance increases. Cedar Point in particular may see fluctuations from 3 to 3.4 million a year, in small increments relative to the economic health of its markets, but there is no growth to be had from sheer body count in the park.

So if you want to grow your revenue, you have two options. The first, you keep pushing the price to perceived value ratio, sensitive to market conditions. They've done that, and historically have done a fairly good job on that (though I still think season passes are underpriced). The second option is to look for "revenue enhancement" opportunities. These can be had a number of different ways that include things like Fast Lane, Challenge Park, dining plans, VIP tours, and of course an entire upcharge attraction within the park. Revenue enhancement generally doesn't interfere with the core value proposition of the core product, it just adds a little more in return for more money for customers who are willing to spend the money.

That's not "poor management" or any other sign of failure, it's a creative way to make gravy that you aren't going to get any other way.

Guys, come on, can't you see that YouCedarMyPoint is right???

Only kidding of course...

Cedar Fair is doing just fine and apparently you can't even read up on exactly how the company is doing. You say it won't work at any park that isn't Disney? Do you care to tell us how well it did at Kings Island last year? How about showing us some FACTS instead of spitting false claims and opinions all over the place. Thank you.

All of you just keep making my point for me, you just won't admit it. I don't know how many times I have to say it. Yes, Cedar Fair's financials have improved. No I'm not saying the company is on the brink of collapse (although it was). What none of you seem to grasp is that the upcharge does work. DA will raise capital for the park. But, it decreases the value of the general admission ticket for the consumer. We all agree the upcharge will raise capital for the park and the park isn't going anywhere anytime soon. We all agree people are going to attend the park no matter how much they charge for admission or anything else at the park. Here are the key questions no one will answer or admit I'm right about.

Q: If upcharging for separate attractions is such a good business model, then why wouldn't smart management do it for every new attraction in the future? - If you think upcharging for DA is a good idea then you have already admitted I'm right.

A: The answer is, there no reason. If a company sees an opportunity to exploit a demographic to raise capital it will. The only difference between the DA upcharge and any other future up charge is what demographic is targeted.

Q: If management says it is trying to make the park more family friendly, why does it upcharge for the primary new attraction which is geared towards children?

A: Because financial considerations for a company outweigh any other factors a marketing department may try to sell to its gullible fans.

What this whole discussion boils down to is, the DA exhibit doesn't effect most of you; but, you can't bare the thought that an upcharge on an attraction you want is coming to you sooner rather than later. What you can't deny is if management thinks it can make more money by upcharging the attraction, they will. All I'm saying is, a lot of you will owe me serious apoligies when you are paying more for the new "premium rides". No one should be happy about an upcharge within the park. It's not a good thing for the consumer or even the long term health of a company. That's not fact or fiction, just Economics 101. Jeff is correct, there are limited revenue streams and there are places where an upcharge is justified. However, the place for them are the luxury perks he mentioned (Fast Lane, meal plans, VIP, etc...). But no, devaluing the general admission ticket with a park within a park is not a perk and not a justifiable upcharge.

YouCEdarMyPoint said:
...a lot of you will owe me serious apoligies...

If we all "apoligize" to you now, will you go away?

'Cause I'll happily start, if that's what it takes.

I'm sorry, YouCEdarMyPoint.

If that's what it takes, I agree, dj. I'm sorry too. This is a horrible thread all of a sudden.

Edit: I'm a single (but engaged), early thirties male, no kids, with disposable income, and I'm going to walk through DA, at least once. But I'm also an enthusiast and CP lifer who wants to see Millennium Island, er I mean Adventure Island in the daytime.